Latest Stephen King work compares fundamentalist Christians to Muslim terrorists
Along with not so subtle digs on the past administration, Stephen King, whose works have sold over 350 million copies, has a clear attack on fundamentalist Christianity.
King’s hero is battling a villain who is a deacon of the ultra-conservative, even fundamentalist church in the town. The deacon also helped establish WCIK – “Where Christ is King” /” Jesus Radio” – the most powerful Christian radio station in New England.
In the head to head confrontation between Stephen King’s hero and villain, the hero lets out his commentary on fundamentalist Christianity:
I saw your kind again and again in Iraq. They wore turbans, instead of ties, but they were just the same. Right down to the blather about God.
Unfortunately, the war on Christianity seems to be more than just the use of “Happy Holidays” but the full-scale cultural marginalization, ostracization, and vilification of Christianity, but especially fundamentalist Christianity – that group of people that unapologetically believes:
“in a single absolute truth with a complete trust placed on an authoritative book.”
This prior quote is from EndHereditaryReligion.com, which apparently believes a great evil is teaching your children your beliefs. Which, you apparently should know, is a recent right granted by the Supreme Court:
The Supreme Court gave parents the right to teach children the tenets and the practices of their faith back in 1944. (Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158, 164 (1944).
This again, is from the same site, only from their article on how Sham homeschools are fostering a radical right fifth column. From the url, it appears it was previously titled “Homeschool regulation must be a top priority for the Obama administration.”
But, contrary to what fundamentaphobes fear, absolute truth prevents a politics of force.
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The quote you show us about Prince v. Mass. shows, on its writer's part, a fundamental misunderstanding of American jurisprudence. The Supreme Court cannot grant rights–no part of the government can; they can only recognize them, because the basic premise of our Constitution is that rights arise from the fact of our being human, created by God. It's a socialist (and Satanic) idea that rights devolve from the government.
In any event, it's remarkably silly of people to complain about Christian fundamentalists “trusting every tenet of the New Testament.” After all, it's repeated over and over therein that we're to love our neighbors as ourselves, be peaceful, not to sin regardless of situation, and to urge (rather than force) others to die to self and live in Christ? Do they want us to stop being honest, peaceful, hard-working, charitable? (The answer is probably “yes”, though; a life lived virtuously is a silent condemnation of others, and a barrier to power-grabs.)
And your comments show a fundamental misunderstanding of the public school system which John Dewey tried to change to brainwash children into socialism. Consider the phony charge from public school teachers that homeschoolers are not “socialized”. Homeschoolers both here and in England and Germany are also viewed and treated as sham, independent types, who won't conform to the state's mandates. German homeschoolers especially, have been fined, jailed, denied due process, and forced to flee. See: http://www.hslda.org. As elsewhere among your comments, although you may be a virtuous, loving, charitable and peaceful Christian whose witness silently condemns others of sin, it is a serious mischaracterization of this book and its author's purposes to think of them as just a silly complaint. Randy, who posted this report, has it right. It is a full scale assault on Christianity. Again, this is no time for passivity in the face of evil.
“Reformed”, I'm going to assume that you're having one of those kinds of days that we all have–where we're just a little hypersensitive, and likely to misinterpret the words of others, especially when we've decided we really don't like those others for whatever reason. Still, it tries the patience of even the most forgiving when everything one says is badly misunderstood, and attacked viciously and personally. Please keep that in mind.
Nothing that I wrote contradicts the truth that the public-school system is designed to further the establishment of a New World Order. I was speaking to the incorrect perception of the writers at EndHereditaryReligion.com as pertains to constitutional law, not to Randy–and, in fact, happen to be a homeschooling mother myself, a card-carrying member of both HSLDA and the Texas Home School Coalition.
Furthermore, “silly” is a legitimate word to use, as its foremost definition is “weak-minded or lacking good sense; stupid or foolish”…followed closely by “absurd; ridiculous; irrational” (per the Random House Dictionary). I am aware of other definitions thereof, so let's not get into hair-splitting. As the rest of my comment indicated, the unbelievers would be very foolish indeed to encourage us to stop being Christians–but it probably won't stop them anyway, because we make them feel bad about themselves. Is that clear enough for you?
Finally, it is a serious condemnation and prejudgment to assume that, based on a few comments, I am frivolous, passive, or ignorant. Would you like to stop making assumptions and try a little charity? I'm not going to get into an “I'm holier/smarter/better than you are” dispute with anyone, much less a stranger.
Well lets be fair…there really are Christian fundamentalists who are akin to Muslim terrorists. Westboro Baptist Church comes to mind. You have to understand that there is a difference between being fundamental when it comes to doctrine and being fundamental when it comes to being against everything/everyone that doesn't quite match up to your standards with a militant fervor that is borderline hate.
Don't act like there's no such thing as extremist Christians.
Randy, I believe you confuse the term “Fundamentalist” with “Radical” before the first quote. Such a group as the Westboro Baptist Church comes to mind as an apt example of the people King is referencing. Many people clamor against radical muslims, and yet there are plenty of radical Christan's. One most not confuse their terms, or else chaos ensures.
“Let's be fair…there really are Christian fundamentalists who are akin to Muslim terrorists.”
There are extremists who CALL themselves Christians. We have all seen the signs of Westboro Baptist and they are 'against everything and everyone' as you say and totally major in the negative. But, if you check out their 'church', it is actually very tiny and most members are of the pastor's own family. They have not committed, to my knowledge, any acts of actual terrorism or violence against others, nor have I heard of them calling for violence against anyone. So, yes, they are extremists, but in a much more benign sense than Muslim extremists who chop off heads and fly planes into skyscrapers killing thousands of people. So I would not say they are “akin to Muslim terrorists” or that they are a huge threat to our country or to the world at large. And, though they CALL themselves 'Baptist' and 'Christian', they are truly apostate in their beliefs. The world, of course, looks at them and lumps us all together as 'fundamentalist Christians'.They give us all a bad name..yet they truly are few in number. There are possibly other groups out there I have never heard of and certainly there have been several people who proclaim to be Christians who have become violent over the issue of abortion. But, there again, their beliefs and actions actually contradict the teachings of Christ and those individuals have been few in number as well. (If I am wrong, please correct me if you have the actual facts on this.)
True Christians and Christian beliefs are NOT a threat to society at all…(but a blessing!) But Muslims beliefs and some Muslims are indeed a threat. But …we are living in a day when good is being demonized and called evil and evil is being tolerated and called good.
Sorry guys – meant it as sarcasm
Or is that the problem that the world is confusing Fundamentalist with Radical? Westboro is quite a bit out there, but even they don't do anything more than test the limits of free speech…
So how is it that you can dismiss the actions of Westboro (or extremist Christians who blow up abortion clinics) as heretics and misled, but extremist Muslims…well that's because Muslim beliefs are a threat? There is no more consensus within the Muslim community about whether it is inherently violent than there is in the Christian community about whether Mary was a perpetual virgin.
Let's just conclude it by acknowledging that there are camps in every religion who are extreme and give a bad name to the rest and if non-believers want to denounce such groups, we should let them.
Confrontational by nature, but not subject to the vagaries of monthly cycles, I do not engage in ad hominem attacks with people who are anonymous. Nor am I interested in continuing an Oprah-styled feelings based dialog with anyone. However, what we all post herein we are accountable for. First, your quote “trusting every tenet of the New Testament” is nowhere to be found on EndHereditaryReligion.com, so where is it a quote from, or is it just a paraphrase? Secondly, I disagree that “unbelievers would be very foolish indeed to encourage us” in that it indicates a serious misunderstanding of what the likes of King, the writers on EndHereditaryReligion, and Obama's neo-pagan socialist cohorts' intentions are for us. That is the primary point of disagreenent with you, and which you apparently cannot come to terms with. Accuracy is very important when one wants to prove or disprove! Just say what you mean to avoid being interpreted multiple ways. However, what you do choose to post will be judged and interpreted. And finally, we also homeschooled in PA for many years, a state very hostile to homeschooling. Fortunately, we joined HSLDA immediately upon starting our homeschool, because the public school district made demands on us that were illegal. There were also other homeschoolers and groups who did not join HSLDA and who compromised with the school district just to get along. That experience taught us to be vigilant and outspoken, not passive, when it comes to our beliefs and freedoms which are clearly still under assault as never before. Therefore, I believe that the choice of some of your words shows an unwarranted deference towards an enemy that is hell bent on destroying our families and this country.
“reformed”, I'm not sure exactly how I've offended you so grossly that you berate me as you do. Your contention with me appears to be that I do not express myself to your satisfaction; I recognize that you may not appreciate nor approve of my writing style (you would be one of few among Christian and right-wing bloggers, actually), but that does not justify the level of outright hostility that I perceive. Understand that I cannot accept your criticisms in that spirit.
I believe that our interaction has been disruptive and unfruitful. The cause which this blog champions is far, far too important to be sidetracked by petty, hair-splitting disputes–a cause I happen to believe in quite firmly myself, and have for a very long time. I have little reason to expect that you will stop taking issue with me, “reformed”, so in the interests of not interfering with more useful discussions, I will cease to comment here and I will not return.
Sorry, sir, but you are wrong!!
The webpage below lists Islamic terror attacks worldwide within the past two months. Below that, you can view attacks for each year back to 9/11/01. An overwhelming amount of violence, murder, and mayhem. Though it is true, violence has also been done in the name of Christianity, it has been done by those who are in total conflict with what the Bible teaches. The Catholic Church, for example, killed many people in its various Inquisitions in the name of Christianity…. but that church does not uphold the tenets of true Christianity…it is apostate. Violence done in the name of Islam, however, IS done in accordance with what that ideology/religion teaches and is not in conflict at all with the Quran. That is the difference I am trying to get across to you.
If you can stomach it, read down the page here and see all the acts of violence being committed daily… all over the world…mainly to Christians…by Muslims who are extremely serious about what Islam teaches:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#At...
Unlike Christianity, Islam is not simply a belief in God. Islam is an ideology…one that explicitly seeks political and social dominance over every person on the face of this planet. Islam means Submission. Islam is a set of rules that establish a social hierarchy in which Muslims submit to Allah, women submit to men and all non-Muslims submit to Islamic rule.
Read more here: Our Statement on Muslims (and Islam)
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Stateme...
A very balanced statement. While we must love and pray for individual Muslims, their ideology, if believed and acted upon truly as written by their prophet, leads to domination of the world through violence. Christianity is not a religion of violence at all. If violence is committed in the name of Christianity…it is NOT truly Christianity (or true Christians)…you can be sure of it!
What? wait, Time out. I appreciate both Pilgrims and reformed's comments. So don't anyone go anywhere. Others are interested in what both of you have to say too. So don't make me comment more to straighten you both out. Okay?
I said, Ain't anybody goin anywhere!
I'm not denying the fact that there is unspeakable violence being committed every day by Muslims. Neither am I arguing that Christianity is fundamentally violent.
Rather, I merely seek to maintain that not all Muslims are violent. There are many Muslims who believe that terrorists have a fundamental misunderstanding of their own religion – the very same way we are able to condemn the actions of violent and militant Christians both now and throughout history who have acted violently while maintaining that Christianity itself is does not teach this.
So, I ask – what grounds do you have for such a blatant double-standard? Are you really willing to accuse your otherwise peaceful Muslim neighbor of being inherently violent and out to establish political domination?
If so, then don't expect for non-Christians to give you any better treatment. If you are willing to condemn every Muslim as a potential terrorist simply because of rampant violence by extremist Muslims then don't be surprised when fundamentalist Christians get thrown in the same camp.
Matthew 7:1-2 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
The Koran itself proves that Islam's high regard of jihad, conquering by force, and submission within by believers and without by unbelievers is doctrinally imbedded in their culture. Christ came to set us free, not put us into further bondage. See: Galatians5:1. The Catholic crusades against reformers was not Christian. The Crusade against the Moslem invasion of Spain was justifiable. The war against terror is defensive, since Muslim terrorists made the first strike(s). The aggressive track record of Islam cannot be whitewashed. Every argument that Islam is peaceful falls flat in view of Koranic doctrine and a bloody record of attempting to impose slavery, not freedom.
Sir, you did NOT read both of the references I provided. You must have just skimmed the first page with all the acts of violence I referenced. Had you read the Statement on Muslims (which is very balanced), you would have seen that neither I, nor the folks at that website are guilty of any double standard. Of course not all Muslims are violent or approve of violence. But the basic point I was trying to get across to you is that Islam, in its teachings, IS violent and those who commit violence in the name of Islam are just doing EXACTLY as their holy book tells them to do. So-called 'Christians' who do violence in the name of Christ are APOSTATE…and acting in total contradiction of what the Holy Word of God teaches. I am not condoning their actions because they choose to call themselves Christians. No way! They are just as wrong as the Muslim terrorists. But, it is true…very true…that most all the violence being done in the world today is done in the name of Allah. Spend some more time reading down the list at that website. Click on the years going back to 9/11/01 and read the carnage that has been and continues to be done every day…often to tiny children! Though there are peaceful Muslims who truly oppose all this violence done for Allah, many have remained silent… possibly out of fear and perhaps due to confusion on their part. I don't know why. But, on the contrary, every time a so-called 'Christian' has committed an act of violence, Christians have spoken out to condemn those actions and in some cases have even reached out in love to help the victims or at least have offered prayer for them. Any Christians who have not done so are in dire need of repentance
Here… since you didnt' read it, is the statement thereligionofpeace.com makes about Muslims while at the same time trying to expose the truth about Islam:
Our Statement on
Muslims (and Islam)
“Don't judge the Muslims that you know by Islam and
don't judge Islam by the Muslims that you know. ”
Since we hear from so many critics who either don't take the time to read this site, or simply can't understand the distinction between Islam and Muslims, we thought it best to bring together in one place what we have said in so many others over the years.
Islam is an ideology. No ideology is above critique, particularly one that explicitly seeks political and social dominance over every person on the planet.
Muslims are individuals. We passionately believe that no Muslim should be harmed, harassed, stereotyped or treated any differently anywhere in the world solely on account of their status as a Muslim.
Islam is not simply a belief about God. It is a word that means submission. Islam is a set of rules that establish a social hierarchy in which Muslims submit to Allah, women submit to men and all non-Muslims submit to Islamic rule.
Since we don't live in a Muslim country (where censorship, intimidation and brute force are shamelessly employed to protect Islam from logical analysis), we are still free to openly exercise our right to debate the merits of the Islamic value system against Western Liberalism.
Are men really superior to women as the Qur'an says? Are women intellectually inferior as Muhammad taught? Does propagating material (the Qur'an) that openly curses people of other religions amidst random calls to violence really make for a better social environment? Is it right to keep women as sex slaves merely because the Qur'an explicitly allows it in multiple places? Should atheists and homosexuals have to choose between the noose and an outward profession of faith in Allah?
Yes, there are Muslims who take issue with these aspects of Islamic theology, but it doesn't change what Islam is. Don't confuse the ideology with the individual. Don't draw conclusions about Islam based on the Muslims that you know, be they terrorists or humanitarians. Islam must be understood on the basis of what it is, as presented objectively in the Qur'an, Hadith and Sira (biography of Muhammad).
By the same token, don't draw conclusions about the Muslims in your life based on the true nature of Islam. Like any other group, not all Muslims think alike. Even if there is no such thing as moderate Islam, it does not mean that there are no moderate Muslims.
If our years of dialogue with literally hundreds have taught us anything, it is that most Muslims (even devout ones) have only a superficial understanding of their religion. Most never made the choice to be Muslim, so (as with all religion) there are widely varying degrees of seriousness with which they may take the teachings of Islam.
The Muslims that you know are not terrorists. More than likely, their interests in life are similar to yours and they have the same ambitions for their children. They should neither be shunned, mistreated, nor disrespected merely because of their religion. Their property should not be abused, and neither should copies of their sacred book be vandalized.
Prejudging an individual by their group identity (or presumed group identity) is not only unethical, it is blatantly irrational, since group identity reveals absolutely nothing about a person. Every individual should be judged only on the basis of their own words and deeds.
Don't judge Islam by the Muslims that you know, and don't judge the Muslims that you know by Islam.
TheReligionofPeace.com
So a non-Muslim thinks Islam is an inherently violent religion and that any non-violent Muslim simply has a superficial understanding of their own religion?
But were a non-Christian to say the same thing of us, they would be off their rocker.
The Christian Bible doesn't paint a better picture, you know. Or are you content to skip over the Old Testament with its genocide, scheming, manipulation, adultery, prostitution, violence, etc.?
Double standard. Just saying.
I don't understand why we cannot just say that there are extremist Muslims and extremist Christians and that both deserve to have their actions condemned. Why must you give in to the compulsion dive into whether Islam is inherently violent? To feel better about being a Christian? So you have some additional reason why you believe in Jesus Christ as not Muhammad?
Just wondering out loud, but why don't people blame the Jews for all the violence in the Old Testament? (not saying anyone should be blamed, but it just seems that Christians always end up as a scapegoat).
Love is not the motivating fact to convert non-Muslims to their religion. Interrogation
is. Love and concern for the eternal destination of every human being is the motive of the born-again Christian. Therefore it would be contradictory to characterize a true christian to excise hate and violence against those whom he is trying to win for Christ.
“Double standard….I don't understand why we cannot just say that there are extremist Muslims and extremist Christians and that both deserve to have their actions condemned.”
I know there are Christians with ‘extreme’ faith…which to me means, Christians who stand for the gospel and for Christ in the face of terrible circumstances/persecution and do not waver in their faith. But, NO, there are no ‘extremist’ Christians in the sense you are speaking of…meaning (true) Christians who espouse violence …who attempt to control and force their beliefs on the rest of the world through coercion. ‘Christians ‘ who do that are NOT AUTHENTIC. (Why can’t you get this?) TRUE Christians submit to Jesus Christ…follow His example. Think of the millions of Christians being persecuted around the world today. They speak the truth in love to unbelievers, sharing the faith sometimes at great cost. They are often thrown into jail, tortured…put through all kinds of misery and still show love to their enemies in the midst of it all. Using violence to spread the faith or right perceived wrongs was never part of the teachings of Christ. Anyone who does so is not truly a Christian…even if they call themselves one. Their actions are not sanctioned by the Bible nor by Christ.
“The Christian Bible doesn't paint a better picture, you know. Or are you content to skip over the Old Testament with its genocide, scheming, manipulation, adultery, prostitution, violence, etc.?”
There is a world of difference between the Bible and the Koran. As Christians, we live now according to the New Testament. The Old Testament gives us the history and basis for our belief and presents the Law of God. Old Testament records God’s dealing with his people the Jews. When they went into the Promised Land, yes, there was a genocide….they were to destroy the peoples who lived there. And who told them to do that? God did. Why? Because the people who were living there were completely depraved and committing all kinds of abominations. God wanted them destroyed completely because He knew if any were left, they would lead His chosen people away into evil and idolatry. The Israelites did not obey God totally in this command…and that is exactly what eventually happened. They began to intermarry and worship the false gods and idols of those evil people which lead to many judgments and eventually to the captivity of the nation of Israel. Yes, there is ‘scheming, manipulation, adultery, prostitution’ recorded in Scripture, but it was not condoned by God nor did He encourage His people to follow in such behaviors. The Old Testament gives an honest description of mankind (sinners every one) and God’s dealings with them when they sinned and when they turned back to Him. The Old Testament is the nation of Israel living under the Law and the sacrificial system that could not truly change men’s heart and could not save them. It was imperfect….but that which is Perfect did come…in the New Testament which is what we as Christians follow today.
The New Testament never teaches the use of violence by followers of Christ against physical adversaries. On the contrary, Jesus taught his disciples to turn the other cheek, to do good unto those who would persecute them. Though Christians must confront the evil of this world, their response is to be non-violent. Christians are to exercise faith… trusting God in matters of justice and vindication rather than using violence against their enemies. This is clearly what the New Testament teaches. Yes, nations do go to war with each other and sometimes evil dictators like Hitler must be defeated for the sake of all mankind. The sinfulness of men often brings about terrible consequences for our world. But Christ did not teach his followers to hate unbelievers, but to love them.
Now the Koran, on the other hand, DOES teach the use of violence..over and over again.
Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57) This command is practiced in almost all Islamic Fundamentalist countries today. (Ever heard of Honor killings?) He also said: “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
Of the Unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush.” (Sura 9:5) In fact, the truth is that the only sure way to paradise for a Muslim, to die in a Jihad. Sura 9:111
There are many, many more verses like those above calling for violence against the infidels. The Koran is the foundation of the religion. Some Muslims say that “the command to kill non-Muslims is not for today”…it was only for ‘a certain time’. But where in the Koran does it say that? Actually, nowhere… never does it indicate that the commands to kill “unbelievers,” infidels”, “Jews” and “Christians” was only for a previous time. So while every Muslim is not a terrorist, every Muslim (because of what the Koran teaches) is a potential terrorist if he takes that holy book seriously in all that it teaches. On the contrary, if a person studies the Bible, especially the NT teachings of Jesus… becomes a true believer of Christianity… he will actually end up laying down his life for others…of all faiths. A person who kills/maims in the name of Christ never knew Him at all.
So, yes… extremist Muslims who do violence and extremist people ‘calling themselves Christians’ who do violence wrongly in the name of Christ…’both deserve to have their actions condemned’. But remember this…one acts in accordance with his holy book…the other acts in total contradiction to what the Bible says.
You know I just wrote a lot on this topic when all I really needed to say is this: An extremist is someone who follows his beliefs to the extreme. So it follows then that an extremist Christian would be one who follows what Jesus taught to the extreme… which would make him, not a terrorist, but a complete pacifist and a conscientious objector in time of war….since Jesus taught 'love your enemies as you love yourself”. On the other hand, a Muslim who is extreme in his beliefs in Islam will take Mohammed's teachings to their extreme which will make him a terrorist since Mohammed taught, 'Kill the infidel.” There is no way you can get terrorist from the teachings of Christ. But the teachings of Mohammed to often lead to terror, murder, and mayhem which we are witnessing daily in our world.
You know I just wrote a lot on this topic when all I really needed to say is this: An extremist is someone who follows his beliefs to the extreme. So it follows then that an extremist Christian would be one who follows what Jesus taught to the extreme… which would make him, not a terrorist, but a complete pacifist and a conscientious objector in time of war….since Jesus taught 'love your enemies as you love yourself”. On the other hand, a Muslim who is extreme in his beliefs in Islam will take Mohammed's teachings to their extreme which will make him a terrorist since Mohammed taught, 'Kill the infidel.” There is no way you can get terrorist from the teachings of Christ. But the teachings of Mohammed to often lead to terror, murder, and mayhem which we are witnessing daily in our world.
I need to reiterate that I DO NOT, in any way, think that it is consistent with the Christian faith for a believer to go about making converts through violence. Not at all. So, I “get” that…okay?
Also, I am NOT saying that Muslims and Christians are the same or that either is a valid choice and will eventually lead toward eternal life. I believe Jesus when he says that it is only through him that we can come to the father.
What I am saying, is that there are Muslims and there are Christians who both use violence to advance their cause. And BOTH do so with the supposed backing of God and their holy books. As a Christian, I am able to condemn the actions of these Christians because of the hermeneutical framework that I have adopted which says that the violence inflicted by God's people, at God's command, was for a purpose, place, and time and it is no longer needed. Further, I agree that Jesus' commands explicitly forbid this type of behavior and that anyone who acts in opposition to that is either content to ignore his command or, perhaps, is misled.
However, I am not a Muslim. I do know Muslims, though, that have adopted a similar hermeneutic allowing them to disavow the use of violence as a valid means of proselytizing, as it was intended for a specific purpose, time, and place which is not now. These Muslims condemn the actions of others who call themselves by the same name and understand their violent actions to be wrong.
To reiterate, I do not think that being peaceful makes a Muslim right or somehow validates their religion.
Now, if you want to maintain that, despite not being a Muslim yourself, you have gained complete and objective knowledge of the Koran, and are able to dismiss peaceful Muslims as being misled and ignorant, feel free. I won't stop you and I can't.
But don't expect the rest of the Christian world to adopt your same views. I speak only for myself (but I suspect there are others out there who agree) when I say that I have no interest is telling people what they believe, how they are wrong about something of which I am not a part, and exercising a standard which would be considered “double” by everyone but myself and those who happen to share it.
Also, whether you want to redefine “extreme” or not, the truth remains the same: people from every religion resort to violence to advance their cause and others within the same religion condemn them for doing so and call them “extreme.” Semantics, in this case, do not help your case for whether Islam is inherently violent.
I'm sure that your mind remains unchanged as does mine…feel free to respond if you would like, but I simply cannot devote any more time to this conversation.
I appreciate your thoughtful replies.
Name one Christian who uses violence to advance their cause of Christianity. You've referred to antiabortionists who are Christians, but they are not trying to advance Christianity. You've referred to the Westboro bunch, but they've never used violence.
Does anyone here speak Arabic? Has any one here actually ever cracked open a Qur'an? Until you do either, don't say that the Qur'an says to kill all the infidels, commit random jihad, do honor killings, etc. Learn to differentiate between cultural traditions and Islamic traditions. Don't quote the Hadith and say it's the Qur'an. Educate yourself, so you don't sound ignorant when speaking about these matters..
Be aware that Christians as well as Muslims in Arabic and North African countries, as well as some Sub-saharan countries practice honor killings and genital mutilations. Christians, gasp!
Those things are advocated nowhere in the Qur'an.
And please hear this – I am not a Muslim – I am a born again Christian who used to be a Muslim…and I am embarrassed by so many Christians racism/ignorance/political hatred when it comes to reaching the Muslim world for Christ.
The Qur'an has plenty in it to condemn itself as false and historically inaccurate. No one needs to make up worse things about it. Christ came to seek and save the lost. If you're going to open your mouth about radical Islam, let it be to speak the Gospel to your Muslim neighbor.
Why Christians are so afraid of Islam is beyond me. God has given us His power and truth, why do we tremble in the face of a false religion? If you want to be afraid of something, be afraid of the state of the church in America.
“I am embarrassed by so many Christians racism/ignorance/political hatred when it comes to reaching the Muslim world for Christ.”
Your assumption is unfair…that anyone who says Islam is a violent religion is 'racist' and full of 'political hatred', ignorant, and uninterested in reaching Muslims for Christ. That is simply untrue. Fact is, Islam is not a race. It is an ideology and Muslims are of many different races.Their beliefs as Muslims ARE wrong…I can say that and still have love and compassion for individual Muslims and reach out to them with the gospel. We are simply having a discussion here about what Islam teaches…not attacking the Muslim people who are presently enslaved by that faith. (We do not hate Muslims!) Understanding that Islam is a violent religion does not impede my ability to share the gospel with individual Muslims..as least not in this country yet. But sharing Christ with Muslims in other parts of the world is indeed dangerous. But, thankfully, faithful Christians are doing just that…lovingly sharing their faith in Christ against all odds and often losing everything for it and sometimes even their lives. More on this issue of using the argument of racism at http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Racism-...
“Be aware that Christians as well as Muslims in Arabic and North African countries, as well as some Sub-saharan countries practice honor killings and genital mutilations. Christians, gasp!”
Give some examples to prove this statement, please. I have been searching the web for examples of this, but am finding none. If, there ARE instances of “Christians' killing and disfiguring people, how could those people be TRUE Christians when that kind of behavior goes totally against the teachings of Christ? True Christians are not 'extremists' in the sense that they KILL PEOPLE for their faith. On the other hand, Christians ARE often KILLED FOR their faith. Someone who kills or maims in the name of Christ is not/cannot be of Christ at all…(even if they want to say and believe they are). Where did Christ teach us to kill others? Did Mohammed teach killing others? Yes, many times. I don't have to “speak Arabic” or be an Islamic scholar to understand that Islam teaches the use of violence to further its cause. All I have to do is look at history and look at what is happening in the world today…all the violence being done in the name of Allah. If you can't see it, you are blind.
http://thereligionofpeace.com/ (See picture of a 48-year-old Somali who begs for his life as he is partially buried in preparation for stoning over adultery by an Islamic court)
See also http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#At... much violence on a daily basis, it is heartbreaking. Show me where there is this amt of violence being done on a daily basis by apostate 'Christians' (let alone by any true Christians).
It is not 'fear of Islam'…nor 'trembling' …because indeed our God is greater. It is simply a discussion of what extremism is and who the real extremists are. Stephen King is portraying fundamentalist Christians to be a violent as Muslim extremists which is just plain false!
And it should be noted that lying to infidels is perfectly acceptable. And likewise, if Islam's religious leaders are interpreting the Koran incorrectly and thereby fomenting violence by blurring the lines between the Hadith and the Koran, we don't have time right now to “educate” ourselves when faced with slaughter and/or bondage. All those so-called “random” jihad attacks, suicide bombings, airplane hijackings, honor killings are the combined witness to the world of a religion purposely instigating violence, the rewards for which are multiple virgins in heaven after the destruction of Christianity and the evil West. When Islams religious leaders condemn the above, we will have the opportunity to “speak the Gospel” to them. In the meantime, how would you recommend witnessing to Muslims here in view of their hostility and separation caused by “racism/ignorance/political hatred? Please supply proof of your being “born again”. Who is the Christ you refer to? How many Muslims have you led to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour? What obstacles were there and how did you overcome them?
I just wanted to address your point of the Somali begging for his life as he is preparing to be stoned…um, read the Old Testament! There are many judgments there that don't make sense to us today – and I believe death for adultery is one of them. And stoning was a regular punishment as well…
Another note – please be aware that Muslims overseas view America as a Christian nation. So when we export violent, filthy movies, pornography, and all other “wonderful” facets of American pop culture to them – they assume that these are representative of what is acceptable to Christians. Pretty skewed view, huh? Perhaps we have a similarly skewed view of what we call “Islamic”. What if every murder and child molestation and crime that goes on in this country were reported to them as “Christian serial killer finally caught” or “Christian gets 30 years for horrifying child abuse”. Again, not trying to defend Islam, just show how things can be viewed wrongly.
You asked me how I would recommend witnessing to Muslims here in view of their hostility etc. – this kind of made me laugh because if you have ever talked to a Muslim, you would find that religion is something they love to discuss! I have had many opportunities to talk to my Muslim neighbors about my faith. They are extremely devout, and yet extremely open and polite to talk to regarding the deity of Christ etc. Learn their beliefs, learn what not to do (speak ill of the Qur'an or Muhammed, and it is equivalent to someone speaking ill of Jesus to us), learn how to plant seeds of doubt. Buy a translation of the Qur'an (it will not hurt you) and familiarize yourself with it. And pray! And be a good neighbor and friend! Pretty basic stuff.
. I am His adopted daughter, through His amazing grace. The Christ I refer to is the Christ of the Bible, God incarnate.
? Seriously, I am happy to answer those questions 
You ask for proof of my being born again? Sure, I'll give it, but then you please do the same. I was a sinner dead in my trespasses, and enemy of God. Through an amazing work of the Holy Spirit, he caused my wicked heart to believe in Him, and to place my trust in His redemptive work on the cross. See “reformed”, I too am reformed in my doctrine
I have no idea if I have led any of my Muslim friends to Christ, I pray I have planted many seeds and I know the rest is up to God.
So how about encouraging your sister in Christ instead of interrogating her
Jesus told us to test the spirits. I appreciate your personal testimony. I have worked with one Lebanese and one Syrian. The Lebanese was Catholic. The Syrian was open to all religions except Christianity which he hated, because of his poor experiences with nominal Christians. My salvation experience is similar, but which caused me to leave the Catholic church. I cannot say that contact with them or other Muslims have been cordial, since they seem to want to harbor pre-conceived notions and prejudices about Americans that Islam is superior to Christianity, and American Christians in particular are of the devil. I had hoped you would haved addressed the problem of Islamic leaders fomenting jihad, but I guess you are fearful of the repercussions within the Islamic community.
To the issue of the Old Testament teachings:
”Many Christians misunderstand this important issue, so it is not surprising that Muslims do too. On some websites and in articles, Muslim polemicists refer to the Old Testament to justify, for example, executing homosexuals in Islam. The Bible did this, so why do Christians complain? The polemicists seem to imply that all of humanity should march backwards 1,400 years BC via the diluted and distorted old-new law of Muhammad and re-impose the old commands on everyone. But the polemicists fail to understand the relationship between the Old and New Testaments. Maybe this article will help clarify this issue for Christians and Muslims alike.” (How Jesus Fulfills the Old Testament: http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandso...)
“Christians honor and revere the Old Testament as inspired by God in its own era, and they can learn timeless truths from it, but they also believe that Jesus Christ has fulfilled this sacred text, so people no longer have to be stoned to death for a sin like adultery. Sins are dealt with in a new way under the New Covenant—forgiveness and restoration.”(http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/allahs_wars.htm)
“Christians receive great benefit and edification from reading the Old Testament. This sacred book reveals many timeless and universal themes, like faith and salvation, and hope and praise to God. But this book has also been fulfilled in Christ, as God had promised. Now the New Covenant guides the believer in Christ (and the rest of society if it wants). He reads the Old Testament through the eyes of Christ and the New Testament books and epistles. He must never simplistically transfer every verse from the Old Covenant (like executing mediums and adulterers) to the New Covenant, which instead provides forgiveness and reconciliation and restoration.” (http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandso...)
There is a lot of compelling information at the website referred to above which should shed much light on this first issue you brought up.
Just because Muslims overseas have a distorted view of Americans (thinking all are ‘Christian’) doesn’t necessarily mean we have the wrong view of Islam. We live in a free society where we are allowed free access to information. We can investigate and find out what each religion teaches and draw conclusions from what we read, hear, and see from many sources…print, cyberspace, TV, radio. Muslims overseas often live in societies that are very restricted and/or poverty stricken so they do not have the freedom or access to explore for themselves what the rest of the world is really like.
I agree with your approach to winning Muslims…reaching out in love, being friendly, planting seeds, not attacking their beliefs outright in conversation with them…but waiting for an opportunity when they will be ready to sincerely listen to what it means to be a Christian. Only God can open a heart to the truth…our job is to pray and reach out in love. I agree 100%. At the same time though, I believe we can understand that Islam is a violent religion of hate and bondage. ..that its goal is world domination. We can expose the truth in the market place of ideas… just as the horribly wrong beliefs and policies of Hilter had to be challenged and exposed in his day because people were suffering and being brutally killed. People are suffering and being brutally killed today as well…but in the name of Islam now …as Islam is by far the cause of most of the violence taking place in the world today.
Christian honor killings – why leave the homeland? http://www.boundlessline.org/2008/01/christian-...
I'll also take issue with Islam being the cause of most violence in the world today. Anyone happen to notice 1 million dead Iraqi civilians (christians too) thanks to a lie?
I can't access that website you referenced. Could you check and see if you entered it correctly. I can get to bounlessline.org, but cannot find any article on 'Christian' honor killings. Please enter the address again as I would like to visit the site and read the article.
As to the dead in Iraq, are you blaming that on our US soldiers? What lie are you talking about -the 'lie' of no WMD's? Or is it the lie that 9/11 ever happened or perhaps you think we evil Americans deserved it. We should just shut up, lump it and let them do it again…not defend ourselves?
We can argue til the cows come home about whether or not Bush should have invaded Iraq. But…the main reason we are there (and in Afghanistan) is BECAUSE of the violence of Islam and the threat to our country. We didn't go looking for trouble, we didn't start it…Islamic terrorists did. Perhaps there was a better way to combat terrorism than invading Iraq… but, fact is, we didn't start this war we are in the midst of today. We were not the aggressors…they attacked us. Does anyone even remember 9/11 and nearly 3,000 people blown away or incinerated to the honor of Allah? As Christians, we love sinners, but we hate evil. Muslims are people who need Christ and we need to love and reach out to them. But the ideology of Islam is evil and no less so than the ideology of Hitler. If the US had not gone to war and stopped Hitler, you would not be on this site making comments so freely today.
Again I reference this site: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#At...
which reports DAILY attacks taking place all over the world in the name of Islam. If you scroll down, it also list attacks all the way back to 9/11/01. Show me evidence of this amount of violence being done by any other group in the world today, least of all Christians. If you have the evidence, refer me to it and I will glady investigate it.
Again:
Just curious,…it seems to me that a potential “straw man” has been created here, i.e; the thought that ALL self-professing “christians” have no place for the Old Testament in their practical living.
Perhaps it's just me, but I think it may be an oversimplification to brush-off the “easy” targets of polygamy, God-ordained genocide of heathens, and death to disobedient children, as awkward and hard to justify “leftovers” of a bygone era.
Equally odd, would be the zealous INCLUSION, RELIANCE and PRACTICE of likewise “leftovers” of that bygone era, i.e; tithing. When it must be understood that the LAW is a unit, which cannot be broken (yep,…all 613 of em'). We are informed that; “CURSED is he whom does not CONTINUE in keeping ALL of the Law”.
This would mean you CANNOT neatly BREAK-UP the law into “tidy” sections; Moral, Civil and Cermonial,….it's ALL or NOTHING!
My point is simply this, can we have it BOTH ways?! Vigorously dispelling the notion that the OT laws no longer apply, while simultaneously measuring the “maturity” of another's christianity and forcefully compelling (from the pulpit), that to be a liberated, grace-giving christian, is to “rob” God. How many times have you been abused in church by having the curses of Malachi held over YOUR head for a sub-optimal offering in the plate?
Fundamentalist christians are like fundamentalist muslims: Both are trying to destroy modern society.
Not that this matters much, but King had a pretty sympathetic portrayal of Christianity in his apocalyptic novel, The Stand. Mother Abigail Freemantle was a 103-year-old black woman in Nebraska who drew her strength from singing songs about Jesus. She led the good side.