Atheists wanting to burn the Origin of the Species

Wow. I know you all say this isn't about celebrity fandom, but my inbox was filled this morning with Disqus messages flaming me for speaking badly of Comfort. I didn't even say anything that bad, I just do not agree with Comfort's methods and I think he needs to take a college freshman level biology class.

Now I know how Ingrid must feel when she criticizes Rob Bell or whoever the “it-pastor” en vogue is and gets vitriol flung her way from rabid fans. I doubt Comfort cares about what I think or feels you guys need to advocate for him. I am sorry to have upset you all.

I guess I am having a hard time understanding what (specifically) you disagree with Ray about. Could you be more specific as to the methods you disagree with? You just keep making blanket statements like 'he is pedaling bull' or that he uses 'ploys' to 'trick' people into salvation. That is just totally false as we have alread tried to explain. It not a matter of 'fandom'...it is a matter of defending a brother in Christ who is working hard to reach the lost. He is not perfect and above criticism...of course not...far from it...none of us are. But he IS out in world of unbelievers doing something...unlike so many Christians today. Constructive criticism is helpful. But the statements you have made are based either on prejudice or misunderstanding more than on fact. Give us something solid that we can truly discuss here...not just general statements referring to 'bull'.

How ever imperfect you may feel his presentation to be (scientifically) in the intro to Origins, at least the gospel IS being presented to people who may never read it in a Bible. He is getting the message 'out there'. Sure, some will be offended by it...but not all. If there is a chance just a few souls get saved, isn't it worth it?

I don't blindly follow any Christian preacher/leader holding them up to be beyond fault. Constructive criticism is something they/we all need and it is helpful. But just throwing out barbs that have no real substance is not helpful...it only tears down and discourages. Perhaps you have valid concerns...so far I haven't been able to understand what they are.

If you disagree with Comfort's techniques, tell us specifically where he is wrong and what you would do differently to win the lost. We would like to know. Maybe Comfort would benefit from your insights as well. The goal should be to build up a brother in the Lord...he IS a true brother...rather than tear down.

I like a lot of what Ray does, like bringing the Law into a gospel presentation, BUT Mixing Darwins stuff with what's supposed to be Gospel I don't, just think of the MIXED fruit being paid for by "Christians" and handed out BY "christians". The tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL was what God told Adam to stay away from, MIXING / BLENDING is the EASIEST deception.The serpent mixed HIS thoughts with Gods thoughts to deceive Eve.

I see defence of Darwin. But what about the testimony of the Lord God. In the begining God created the heaven's and the Earth. The question you need to ask yourself is do I believe God's on testimony or do I believe a man who faciltated a lie of the devil which has led to the murder of untold million's. Darwin was a child of the devil. His own testimony proves that. Where anywhere people have embraced this lie of evolution. There has been nothing but death and destruction. John 10:10 " The thief comes not but to steal,kill, and destroy, but I have come to give you life and to give it to you more abundantly". Look at the testimony of the Lord Jesus. He alone gives Life for He is life and the Author of it. Yet people would rather believe the lie of satan over the Truth of God's written word. It all boils down you either believe the authority of scripture or you do not.

I have yet to witness a justifiable book burning.

Am I reading something wrong or does the article say that Comfort is giving out copies of Darwin’s On the Origin of Species? This can be found in public domain easily. It isn’t a big secret. I am certain Comfort will offer pamphlets and other material explaining why Darwin was wrong in some matters. That isn’t a big secret either. Freud was wrong on some points, so was Galileo. Being the first step toward a breakthrough matters even if the scientist/philosopher is wrong on some points because science is built upon the shoulders of giants. One cannot just throw out a whole body of evidence because a few things were unknown or wrong.

Science is not my area and I am no expert, but neither is Comfort (I’ve heard his debate). Think of science as the ocean with all of those rivers of experimentation collecting data as they flow into the body of science. It is a growing body as new discoveries are made.

Low and behold! Jaime and I agree on something! Someone call Guiness Book. This is one for the records...

When you said, "I have yet to witness a justifiable book burning", I could not help but agree with you. I do not like book burnings because the fire gets all of the attention. I would rather see a series of sermons explaining why a symbolic book burning might be appropriate.

However, the rest of what you say, Jaime, is gobblygook. I agree with JSRose. You may have your faith in a 'Jesus" different from the one in the Holy Bible. I do not see how else you can continually defend the lost and berate the saved.

BTW, Ronald Reagan's last name is spelled R-E-A-G-A-N. Learn it and respect it because he is likely the last real American president we will ever have.

Peace out,
T.

The most interesting part is that many who come to these burnings buy things to burn. I am certain those selling Marilyn Manson CDs and Harry Potter books would rather you buy and burn rather than not buy at all.

Wow! Agreement numero dos! If people are buying stuff just to burn it...where is the logic to that? This proves my point about the fire being the drawing card and not the reason for the fire. If people only want to be part of the party without repenting and burning their tools of divination, sorcery, and other unGodliness...they are missing the point entirely.

Have you been to burnings before? I have only heard of them.

Yes, I've been to a few, but not since I was kid. Back then these events were held as part of revivals with different churches sponsoring. The sponsors were usually of the Pentecostal vein, but sometimes Baptist, too. They would pass around large baskets for people to throw their "satanic" items into and I remember coveting the rock albums and books as that basket passed by me. The preachers would usually yowl about Satan feeling pain as the items burned. I considered it an interesting show as a middle schooler, but now I suspect I would feel outrage and nausea.

OKay, now is this the: "I focus on Jesus for salvation", Jaime or the "I focus on harmony with the world for salavation", Jaime?
I'll know "IT's" happened to you when you start defending defenders of the faith as passionately as you defend bashers of the faith.
Why so bitter? Odds are it's because of some mean old church junk that you grew up on.

Who am I defending? I am not bitter, you only think that because you disagree with me. I do not understand this litmus test that says “real” followers of Jesus fall in line with conservative politics. As if Jesus is not good enough, I must be a fan of Reagan and Ray Comfort, too.

Who are you defending? You always defend ANYthing or ANYone that is in rebellion against the authority or righteousness of a holy God. Don't take my word for it, read your own comments. God doesn't want to force some kind of control over you (that's the other spirit), He wants you to come to Him and allow Him to love you as your Father. As I've tried to explain to you before-who cares if I "disagree" with you? God is absolute truth and our opinions and whether or not we agree with it (His truth) is meaningless. You claim you're not bitter and then rant about "conservative politics", which no one except you ever talks about. This site is NOT a political debate and you want to devert attention away from your own spiritual confusion by making it it one (political debate). The jesus that you are a "fan" of or "focus on" is not the One that died for you. You've been had by a demonic poser. The real Jesus warned us about that. And since you insist on talking about Ronald Reagan-I loved him and I miss him and I won't apologize for it. He was a real man and he didn't compromise with our enemies. He loved America and it's pretty obvious that he was the last true patriot that will ever reside in the White House. Gee, the same things that make me admire him are the same things that make you loathe him. You are going to be an awesome warrior for God when that veil of darkness is lifted from you!

No, you don't have to be a fan of any man....but at least Ray Comfort is very busy doing something to win the lost. What are YOU doing.....(except criticizing)?

I criticize Comfort for being misinformed. At least do your homework and be able to support your position with facts.

I hope God is using Comfort to bring people to Him. It isn’t really Comfort that matters, or me or you, but that we allow God to use us as a tool in this world to draw people closer to Him. I am utterly wretched except for God, but that doesn’t stop me from calling something bull when it seems like bull, and Comfort and many of these other television/radio/book deal preachers seem to be peddling bull. They draw more attention to themselves than to God. They are “christian” celebrities.

In what way is Ray misinformed? He is a 'celebrity preacher'?....'peddling bull'? What 'bull' is he peddling? He is presenting clearly the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. What problem do you have with that? Surely, you don't think the gospel is 'bull'. Just because he has become well known through his books/evangelism training programs...you call him a celebrity like he is doing something that is self-serving...that he is in it for personal gain. There ARE many preachers of the 'prosperity' gospel today who do fit your description/criticism,.. but Ray is not one of them. His heart is to simply serve God and to win the lost. Through his radio,tv programs, books, etc., he has encouraged Christians to get out and share their faith effectively. I am one of those... went from rarely witnessing to witnessing regularly...because of Ray's ministry. I am just amazed you have a problem with that. Tell me exactly what YOU are doing. You side stepped that issue completely, didn't you?

I understand that you are a fan of Comfort. I didn't mean to challenge your fandom and I am sorry if I got you all fired up.

No 'fandom', Jamie. You are accusing me of making a man into an idol. Ray is a minister of the gospel and, as such, he has ministered to me....like my own pastor does as well...and John MacArthur thru his sermons downloads, Matthew Henry's commentaries, and many others I could mention. Men used of God...not idols we worship in place of God as you are trying to make out.

STILL no answer to my question....what are YOU doing to share the gospel with the lost? Easy to criticize someone like Ray who is doing it though, isn't it?

wearymom2: Jaime does not have to be accountable to you concerning her evangelistic efforts. The issue of the OP is Ray Comforts anti-Atheism campaign and the reception of it.

I won't be going into Comfort's "Way of the Master" methodology, but concerning his stance on evolution I have to say he is either severely uninformed or ignorant or simply a liar. He is not "pulling the plug on atheism", he is one of the best apologetics for any atheist claiming that evangelicals are anti-intellectual and badly educated on science. One should only watch the banana-video "an atheists worst nightmare".

Funnily enough, Ray Comfort does not give any sources for the "atheist quotes" he is citing. It's even funnier that Comfort doesn't credit the gracious "man" who said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (it was actually a woman who said that, the quote was misattributed to Voltaire). Assuming Comfort is referring to Voltaire: I wonder if he really approves of the philosopher or is just using that quote he heard somewhere but was too lazy to just do a quick wiki search on it.

Comfort may be doing something "to share the gospel with the lost" but that doesn't place him above justified criticism.

No, of course she is not accountable to me, but we all are to God. I was just trying to point out that talk is cheap... taking real action to win the lost is something very few Christians actually do. Being critical of those who making that effort it is easier than doing it yourself, isn't it? She was very critical of Ray, but not being specific so I could understand what she had a problem with. At least you have filled in the blanks a little with your post though I don't agree with you. I think it is unfair to call Ray a liar. You are slandering the man and you have no real evidence of that. Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of trying of to win the lost to blatantly lie to people? Now if you disagree with his approach in witnessing to athetists, why don't you enlighten us as to what he needs to do or say differently to be more effective? I am sure, if you have some good suggestions, Ray would be open to hearing them. Is winning the lost a real priority for you? If so, then tell us how you would witness and win the lost amongst the scientific, athetistic crowd. I am hearing criticisms, but no constructive suggestions yet. I don't think you have a right to criticize unless you have something better to offer... unless you aren't actually interested in soul winning and just like arguing from science the existence of God. I think it is the later. I think I have about had it with discussion on this topic. It is going nowhere.

Johannes,

You say about Ray Comfort "concerning his stance on evolution I have to say he is either ignorant or simply a liar."

Ray is out there everyday on the front lines fighting for the heart and souls of men. He is one of the most biblically accurate teachers of our time. If you knew and understand the authority of Scripture, Jaime and yourself would not make such a claim. If science contradicts Scripture, scientist do not yet have all the facts.

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolishness the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe? Are you placing your faith in the wisdom of man?

I do know and understand the authority of scripture, thank you very much. I do NOT need you to lecture me on divine inspiration. I'm frankly sick of people trying to win an argument by playing the "you have to read it the way the big me does it"-card.

The thing is: science does not necessarily contradict scripture. It's a fatal dichotomy Mr. Comfort makes. As far as I understand his theology, he says that one cannot be a Christian and come to the final conclusion that the earth is millions of years old and life was formed through evolutionary processes.

This is plainly and simply wrong. Period. There is a certain smugness and I must say arrogance about the way Mr. Comfort presents his argument that makes me squirm on the inside. What's his point? Trying to win people to Christ or trying to prove the superiority of evangelic fundamentalist reasoning? Often it looks more like the latter. Then again, his arguments are full of faulty logic and poor research (I mentioned the banana already, did I? To be fair to Mr. Comfort, he apologized for that). He pretends to be a master of apologetics but he is more of a logical trickster. He pretends to be in the intellectual league of Richard Dawkins... but he is not. That's what really riles me up about him.

John Piper believes in YEC. Ravi Zacharias believes in YEC. They are very open and clear about that. They're also incredibly humble about that, too. Mr. Comfort tries to paint anyone who believes in creation as evil (or soon to be evil) fool.

I'm very certain that he severely misrepresents the gospel with his strategy. "Evolutionists" are not stupid. "Evolutionists" are not necessarily immoral. The "Evolution or Creation" debate is not at the core of the gospel. Not at all. Not even near it.

It's all about God becoming man and saving us by taking our sin upon himself. Christian soteriology works without YEC so stop pretending it's a matter of life or death.

/rant out

I FINALLY get what you have a problem with. Ray can believe as he chooses to about young earth creation, but it is wrong to suppose that those who believe in old earth are not true believers, and you feel it is wrong for him to use the YEC as an evangelism tool. I got ya now. I have to admit I am not read up on this controversy. I WILL read up on it though. Nevertheless, I think that God can use what Ray is doing to reach lost people...even if Ray, as you say, if wrong. God can use even the foolishness and mistakes of men for his good purpose. It is the Holy Spirit afterall who works in men's heart to convert them. I think God will bless his efforts...inspite of how you or I feel about it. The gospel if going out there to people who may not otherwise take note of it.

I really do take issue with you calling Ray a liar. He has a different view from you, but he truly loves the Lord and feels called to what he is doing. Namecalling just turns people off to your viewpoint and denigrates the discussion.

I guess I have to clarify something: I do not believe Mr. Comfort to be a liar. If I wasn't clear on that statement I have to apologize. I'm giving him the benefit of doubt a fellow believer in the Lord deserves.

However I have to say that I think he's being intellectually lazy in his arguments. He does not give any source for the atheist's quotes. Did he get them from his hatemail? Read them on an internet forum? Are they in any way representative for the general reception of his book? IMHO he is painting the atheistic "community" with a brush that's waaaayy to broad.

"He has a different view from you, but he truly loves the Lord and feels called to what he is doing."

I readily believe this. And I also readily believe that there are many people who will hear his message and turn to the gospel. I believe the same thing to be true for Jack Chick tracts. Even for this blog I believe that there will be people who find the Gospel behind those messages. People hear Rick Warren's or Brian McLaren's or Rob Bell's sermons and turn to the Lord. People probably even turn to the Lord after hearing a Joel Osteen sermon. We are still called to discern and to be reasonably critical.

You know you are so right about that. I actually came to the Lord after reading a book by Norman Vincent Peale. I doubt I would agree with him on very many things today. But there was one sentence in his book (Power of Positive Thinking) that jumped out at me with a truth I had never known. He said that if I had been the only person on the face of the earth, Christ still would have come down and died just for me. I had never heard that before...it bowled me over.... I couldn't get that sentence out of my mind. That one sentence was the turning point in my life. Amazing. God can use anything and anyone. We just can't put Him in a box.

This has been a good discussion. I really wasn't aware of the problems some Christians were having over the YEC vs the OE. This is something I need to investigate more...read both sides of the issue so I can understand just where you are coming from in your disappointment with Ray's approach. I just see him sharing the gospel boldly and that encourages me so much. Let's all pray together that his efforts will reap souls regardless of our views on his approach.

Johannes,

What's YEC stand for? You Encourage Creation?

YEC= Young Earth Creationism, or the belief that the world is approximately 6,000 years old.

Jaime,
If you look back through history, you will see that God has raised up certain people through out generations that have influenced the church to uncompromising truth and holiness. People like: John Owen, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, William Booth, Billy Graham, Adrian Rogers and now in this day people like Ray Comfort. I have met Ray and can tell you he is no phoney. If you were to look back through history you would find that many of these messengers used by God were rather unorthodox in their presentation like Billy Sunday who would do back flips to illustrate a point. Ray is the real deal. Are you ?

I have shot my mouth off too quickly (unfortunately this is not an uncommon occurrence). I wasn’t even thinking specifically of Comfort when I spoke about phonies. This is probably a personal view with me rather than a far-reaching, all encompassing view. I just do not gain much from most of the television/radio evangelists. There are nuggets of truth to be found, but one must wade through a great deal of “bull.”

I think it is good that Comfort encourages others to speak out about their faith, but I hope that most people who take on the mantle of teaching the faith are better informed about what they are talking about than Comfort. As I have pointed out, science is not my area of study, but I know enough to recognize the misinformation that Comfort often proposes in his debates against evolution. I am also discouraged by his ploys when it comes to sharing the Gospel. It bothers me when we are told that we should trick people into conversion. You may not share this opinion, but it seems to me that Comfort tries to make Christians into sales people who trick the customer into buying Christianity.

He is 'tricking people into conversion'?! He does just the opposite! He presents the gospel just the way Jesus did...(remember the Samaritan woman at the well )..presenting the law first so people can see they are sinners..they haven't kept the 10 commandments and are in NEED of a savior. Once they understand that, and if that concerns them...then the gospel of grace is presented. Without understanding the law and our failure to keep it, we can never understand how desperate our condition is or appreciate what Christ has done for us at the cross. Would you rather have him use the easy believism approach...'God has a wonderful plan for your life'? Now THAT is the way to turn Christians "into sales people and tricking the customer into buying Christianity"....a false christianity. He never encourages Christians to force a salvation decision from a person...doesn't even care for praying the sinner's prayer with people. The gospel message is presented,the person is told what they need to do to be saved...no pressure to make a decision. What happens after the witnessing encounter is up to the person and the work of the Holy Spirit. How could you have a problem with that? Do you just like being contrary...is this a game to you? Are you a born again Christian, Jamie?
Perhaps if you could share more about what your beliefs are, we could understand better how you are coming at this.

By the way, I agree that there are many tv/radio evangelists who present a 'great deal of bull'. But that is not true of all. I could recommend several with 'no bull'...just gospel truth plainly presented...John MacArthur, Alstair Begg, J. Vernon McGee are a few who come to mind. Can't judge everyone by what some do and paint them all with the same brush.

Jaime,

Respectfully, it is absolute nonsense to suggest that Ray Comfort tells people that "we should trick people into conversion." Do you believe that one could actually trick another into conversion? Ray Comfort advocates the use of the law in evangelism which is thoroughly biblical.

However, if Ray Comfort's instruction on evangelism is lacking, perhaps you could share with us your means and methods of evangelism. To do so would be instructive to this community of believers and would not require you to further slander Ray Comfort's ministry.

Who said that evolution was not a religion. I should have read your post before writing mine, which I called "Why do the Heathen Rage."

And they say we Christians have "blind allegiance to our dogma". Don't see a whole bunch of Baptists throwing Richard Dawkins new book into a huge bonfire singing hymns. Nope, we can welcome open criticisms (in fact we welcome it) and will happily debate the issues. But these atheists...... don't like to play with the same ball.